PDA

View Full Version : Let the bench racing begin...



FolkEngineer
February 20th, 2011, 02:42 PM
Let it be known first off that I haven't actually bought my car yet, and second off that I'm not realistically considering any sort of mod this heavy duty on mine, but I figure this should at least be a fun discussion if someone did want to go all out.

I'm not sure how much anyone knows about Procharger or Vortech or any of the new series of centrifugal superchargers that are starting to become more popular. I can't speak to a given application but I can say that they are significantly more efficient and have lower parasitic losses than the Roots type blowers. In other words, they're a decent (if not as hardcore) alternative to turbochargers. In particular, Procharger offers a number of "subcompact" kits for various import cars that are similar to the SX4.

The one that struck me was the C-1 supercharger unit that they offer with the Ford Focus/Acura Integra/Honda Civic kits. All three of these cars have similar engines to ours, 2.0L with compression comparable (okay, 10.2 to 1 is kinda high in ours, I know). Just for the sake of thinking about it, what do all of you say to the feasibility (given a lot of homework and prep work) to using this supercharger in an SX4? It seems to me that if you knew what you were doing, a massive caveat, that this could be some sort of low-boost medium between a turbo kit and just a header.

Something fun to think about, I figure.

automat
February 20th, 2011, 06:51 PM
if you were to supercharge your SX4, you should buy a header anyways

FolkEngineer
February 20th, 2011, 09:00 PM
Well...fair enough, header would indeed help. I should probably make that distinction a little better, this theoretical setup would be somewhat more adventurous than the normal NA set of mods, and at the same time less risky than a turbocharger kit that brings about all sorts of issues with heat and higher boost, etc. The idea was that the supercharger's lack of lag would allow someone to run milder boost and still realize an entertaining result. I'm not trying to get into the super/turbo argument, just thinking aloud whether this would be an alternative to the one kit that is out there for FI'ing the SX4 (RRM turbo).

fizex
February 21st, 2011, 06:41 AM
There is also the Turbine Tech Kit...which I've been trying to get my hands on...Would be cool to see a Supercharger setup but boy is the "proto" kit going to cost a pretty penny to get setup!

Good luck hope you figure something out!

Die trying
February 21st, 2011, 06:56 AM
if you could get a hold of the electric power steering pump that the aussies have then the supercharger could be mounted where the belt driven power steering pump had been.

FolkEngineer
February 21st, 2011, 03:28 PM
So the fact that I'd REALLY really like to do this to my car is that see through, huh? :P

Die, you are the man. I have a target to look for now with the electric power steering pump. I also will do what I can to get a spec sheet on the C-1 from Procharger for any who are interested. I'm hoping that, barring piping, this thing can be made to work with minimal change from one of the other kits. Minimal meaning it would end up easier than if I ad-libbed and started from scratch. Seriously though, this is gonna be a Solidworks only project for a while, but I figure its interesting to work with. Seems like the SX4 could use a little forced induction variety.

Die trying
February 21st, 2011, 06:21 PM
I have always thought the sx4 would be a real kick in the pants with a supercharger but i would prefer a roots type for the instant power. I think that might take more work though.

automat
February 21st, 2011, 06:55 PM
a centrifugal SC is half a turbo, you still deal with heat. you still need an IC. they do lag (to some point). not to mention that early boost will bend your rods like bananas. turbocharging is way easier than supercharging. I'm not saying it's bad, but if you're looking for something easy it's not the best choice. a DIY SC will end up more expensive than a DIY turbo, because it needs to be precision fit with the drive belt. you need idlers to make a good wrap around the pulley, etc. with the turbo you place it wherever you want, and weld tubes between it and the head and your basically done. both systems will need charge piping, intercooling, fuel (or engine) management, BOV, etc.

now I'd love to see a supercharger on a SX4. forced induction is ALWAYS cool:cool:

Die trying
February 22nd, 2011, 05:40 AM
fyi automat knows what he is talking about when it comes to boost bending rods. He had a little incident with his turbo'd sx4.

punksmurph
February 22nd, 2011, 02:33 PM
http://roadracemotorsports.com/turbosmart-to-partner-with-road-race-motorsports/

Looks like Road Race is going to be improving the kits some with turbosmart parts. Now someone really needs to get cracking on the 2010 turbo SX4.

FolkEngineer
February 22nd, 2011, 05:52 PM
Point well taken, Automat. I'm sorry that yours didn't life as long as hoped, but in some sense its always a good thing to know the limits of stock hardware.

I am fairly knowledgeable on centrifugal compressors like turbos and superchargers use. I know that you'd need an intercooler either way, but it struck me that, IF AND ONLY IF you were going to make your own system, there was a basic trade off. That trade off was properly designed and tuned exhaust manifold for the turbo, which is painted as black magic by many, versus the placement of the supercharger. As you said, engine management revision, higher flow injectors (and fuel pump), boost management (bov), etc would be necessary in both systems.

Given that there are a number of good exhaust manifolds available, both for turbo and non-turbo, this is somewhat moot. This RRM system sounds pretty well fitted and ready to bolt on. Quite frankly thats an alien thing to me when dealing with other turbo kits that are lacking parts, still require tubing to be made, blah blah blah. I haven't dabbled in it a whole lot but I've never found a kit this complete for this cheap.

That said, the point of this thread was partly to explore the idea of supercharging and partly to get these crazy thoughts out of my system so that I do what I always do and leave the thing bone stock with warranty intact.

TimeBandit
February 25th, 2011, 06:11 AM
Someone's supercharged theirs; here's a video I found on youtube:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j5jmalSwSG8

Looks like a pretty clean install, too.

punksmurph
February 26th, 2011, 02:32 AM
That is a 1.5L from Asia, not the same as the US 2.0L.

The Shadow
March 1st, 2011, 07:53 AM
FolkEngineer,
Is the C1 anything like this?

http://www.superchargertuning.com/Citroen/C1/

It looks like an electric fan in the air intake to increase the air pressure going into the engine.
Just a little boost without the engine blowing boost of a full fledged Turbo.
And the price ain't too bad either. Even a poor boy like me could do something like that. (if it actually works)

:cool:

Wyliec
March 1st, 2011, 08:40 AM
FolkEngineer,
Is the C1 anything like this?

http://www.superchargertuning.com/Citroen/C1/

It looks like an electric fan in the air intake to increase the air pressure going into the engine.
Just a little boost without the engine blowing boost of a full fledged Turbo.
And the price ain't too bad either. Even a poor boy like me could do something like that. (if it actually works)

:cool:


They don't work. All it is is a bilge blower for a boat! Just another scam like the cheap performance chips on ebay.

Die trying
March 1st, 2011, 08:52 AM
ug my idiot cousin put one of these on his jetta. i wish people would listen to me when they ask my advice. i told him it was junk, but he knew better than me... :rolleyes:

FolkEngineer
March 4th, 2011, 09:45 PM
Die trying is definitely right. I recall seeing these sorts of systems in a couple of places, the "electric superchargers". All that I have seen are fans more than they are compressors. The major distinction between the two (besides blade profiles, blah blah) is that fans barely have a pressure ratio far above 1. They're used for moving air, not so much shoving a lot of air into a small area like you need for FI. Sorry for the little rant, axial flow devices lectures coming back.

I could be missing something major here, but it strikes me that these things work exactly the same as a supercharger, drawing their input work from the crank just like everything else. The only difference is that, unlike a supercharger, you have to through the alternator and then back through the electric motor and fan, so you have two conversion efficiency losses (1 from mechanical-electric with the alternator, 1 from electrical-mechanical for the motor). Thats my two cents, I'm sure others could either back me up or tear me up.

As for the C1, it was just a centrifugal supercharger designed for an engine of roughly the same output/displacement as ours. My comments about the supercharger possibly having better durability were based on the fact that you'd be chucking the glowing hot turbine from the turbo and not having to worry about it. I'm beginning to think this is an unfair impression of a turbo kit, though, and to be honest I'm almost 100 percent converted to the RRM kit crowd.

FolkEngineer
March 4th, 2011, 09:46 PM
Double post, sorry.

anonymous
March 5th, 2011, 01:07 PM
swipe your credit card and buy the rrm kit. its solid and uses legit parts for the build :hi:


i think i could find a computer 120mm fan that would put more air out then that thing hehe :rolleyes:

Stinson Driver
March 6th, 2011, 07:21 PM
if you could get a hold of the electric power steering pump that the aussies have then the supercharger could be mounted where the belt driven power steering pump had been.

I believe the electric power steering that the Aussies (and virtually all markets other than the USA) have is all electric. I do not think there is a motor driven hydraulic pump hooked to the same steering rack we have. I think you would need to replace the entire steering system with non-USA model parts to do a conversion. However, If all you are looking for is a motor driven hydraulic pump for power steering, look for a wrecked Toyota MR2 (the last generation of MR2, that was sold from the late nineties until the mid two thousands) and take the electric pump out of the front of that car. Toyota used a standard hydraulic power steering rack and did not want to run the plumbing from the engine in the back, so they put an electric pump up front. It is smooth, strong and quiet, at least it is in my wife's 2002 MR2.

FolkEngineer
March 26th, 2011, 04:51 PM
You make a very compelling point, Stinson. The electric motor in that sort of setup does indeed directly drive the pinion gear in the steering rack. To me at least, the bigger question is what the hell I thought the setup was when I wrote those last couple messages. Early onset Alzheimers, it sucks bad.

I should mention that I purchased my car this week, a black 2011 Tech Package with the 6-spd. Quite happy with it, feels awesome, light but quick on its feet.

At any rate, you guys have thoroughly convinced me that if I'm going to do forced induction, its gonna be a turbo. Odds are drastically in favor of it being the RRM kit, if and ever bloody when it comes out for the 2011 model (PLEEEEASE). I'm still convinced that for DIY purposes, the difficulty of making a mounting plate for the supercharger and finding a suitable belt drive, and the difficulty of fabricating all the varied tubes (intercooler, header into turbo mainly) would offset one another. That assuming it was all an in-the-garage build without pre-bought parts. Both of those alternatives are made moot by the fact that I now have a warranty and would very much like to keep it at least somewhat intact with a Suzuki authorized product from RRM :)

Thanks for the help, all.